Class Balance [Patch 10.2.1.1000] & Bard

    Quote from Zyrex

    Are you guys really talking about healer balancing? :D Just a hint - there was a druid/warlock brought as a dps some time ago, but since then I saw more healers playing that class than dps players :/ So even if a class is changed/designed as a dps, it can - generally spoken - still be a viable healer class, since - as we all surely agree - heal is "op" these days and should be drastically nerfed to make the secondary class matter.


    Conclusion: it doesn't matter at all, which heal class heals the most amount, only the support for the raid matters. From my perspective as a tank, it doesn't matter if I'm healed by a priest/mage or priest/druid or priest/scout or even priest/rogue. The only difference is: my fps don't suck at priest/mage. :whistling:

    If we will get harder ini with a lot of AoE dmg from bosses I'm pretty sure healers go back to the strongest class combos. Honestly i don't see class balance at all, I see dds balance only. I don't see any difference in fps even with d/s, just turn off animations. RoFL isn't a good example if you talking about anything because every endgame party just run ahead and doesn't care about anything.

    Quote from mrugal82
    Quote from Zyrex

    Are you guys really talking about healer balancing? :D Just a hint - there was a druid/warlock brought as a dps some time ago, but since then I saw more healers playing that class than dps players :/ So even if a class is changed/designed as a dps, it can - generally spoken - still be a viable healer class, since - as we all surely agree - heal is "op" these days and should be drastically nerfed to make the secondary class matter.


    Conclusion: it doesn't matter at all, which heal class heals the most amount, only the support for the raid matters. From my perspective as a tank, it doesn't matter if I'm healed by a priest/mage or priest/druid or priest/scout or even priest/rogue. The only difference is: my fps don't suck at priest/mage. :whistling:

    If we will get harder ini with a lot of AoE dmg from bosses I'm pretty sure healers go back to the strongest class combos. Honestly i don't see class balance at all, I see dds balance only. I don't see any difference in fps even with d/s, just turn off animations. RoFL isn't a good example if you talking about anything because every endgame party just run ahead and doesn't care about anything.

    What is (in your opinion) the "strongest" healer class? Because for me, and I agree with Zyrex on that one, its not the class with the highest heal output (let's be honest here, every heal combi heals more than any dps has life with a single spell xD). The "strongest" heal, imho, is a heal from which the raid benefits the most. So if you have,e.g., a lot of dps, who have skills with %-Mana, P/M is without a doubt one of the strongest priests you can play.

    And if, and that is just my personal opinion, the amount a heal heals matters, than your simply not ready to run a new instance because ANYONE can heal rofl solo with ANY combination and red gear (no gold gear, no t18 weapon, no t13-14 gear, just simple t8-t10 red gear, because thats what I use).



    Quote from Zyrex
    Quote
    Changed Frost Halo to additionally increase elemental damage by 30%.

    Question: Will this only affect the player or also others in range to the fairy?

    If believe, hope, that it will effect only the caster because right now some benefits of "Frost Halo" also only affect the caster (rising tide e.g.). If that is not the case...please change it xD becaue it would be way to op if this'll affect the whole group/raid.


    Edit: It was just changed that its only the owner :D


    Greetings.

    It's time again for CoA - Chain of Arcadia

    Edited 4 times, last by Laisha ().

    Like 2

    You didn’t understand what i wrote. We can’t compare anything if RoFL is the highest ini because you don’t even need so much heal. When your dds kill all mobs in few seconds they can’t even use their dots. The strongest HEALER heal the strongest so the strongest healer is d/p, p/d and p/s. P/M is definetely more supportive healer with less healing potential. I understand your point of view but even p/m needs changes to make him stronger in healing. I really hope we will get harder ini because it’s really disapointing when healer without any AoE healing elite skill can heal ini solo, isn’t it?

    PS: Damage has been reduced about 30% maybe healing should be reduced too?

    Regarding healing reduce: you shouldn't forget lower characters with lower gear/stats. For example inferno is designed to heal with tikal gear and gorge to heal with half-half tikal/inferno Gear. With those gears you have way less bonus healing points and wisdom. The healing output will be very low comparing with rofl parties. If you reduce healing output in general, you will reduce it for all.


    But: the main problem with to much heal is, that healer will heal in every instance the same. It's not like with dps where you fight against the def of trash/bosses. So practically you can build one healer gear now and it is enough for the next 10 contents.

    If you think about healer balancing, I would think about a not visible nerf of heal output or Bonus healing/wisdom for each instance. The higher the instance, the higher the nerf. Like the def of bosses/trash increase with each instance.


    Kind regards

    regarding rogue/priest change:

    • Reduced Patience and Salvation maximum stack to 15 from 20.

    Maybe it was the strongest rogue yes.

    But for rogues in general: As I tested and saw in the last days after the 30% nerf, the fights lasts longer (no surprise ;) ) and this brought the main problem of rogues to the light.

    In general rogues cannot compare in whole RoFL with Chain dps or mdps classes. Maybe except rogue/Warrior because of his aoe.

    With way better gear (2-3 Tiers), better cenedrils and other things I have more, I just manage to compete with mdps classes in longer RoFL runs now (even if it is only 5 minutes longer than before).

    The main problem of most rogues is the energy. You cannot regenerate it like warriors with attacks or have an endless alternative skill like other classes like mdps or scouts. Practically if you ran out of energy, you need to wait 4 seconds to use a skill again, because you regenrate only every 2 seconds a few energy. With Rogue/warden for example you have a mana based Skill next to your Charged Chop. But rogue/priest, rogue/Druid, rogue/mage, rogue/WL haven't an alternative skill. Even with Rogue/warrior and rogue/CH you run out of both resources in long fights. But with Rogue/Warrior it is nearly never a problem (good elite skills, thx for it)

    But the other rogues are only decoration in the group without energy (need to test r/CH after next patch).


    This is just my opinion based on playstyle of rogues and chain classes in the last days and comparing it with mdps and other chain classes ( I know chain will be nerfed. But longer fights -> worse for rogues xd )


    What feelings have other rogue players?


    Greetings

    It would be really cool if we get smart nerf like that but there is a lack of percentage AoE dmg from bosses too, for example first boss after say „No” doesn’t deal any dmg so healers can go and make a tea or coffee. Imo class balance will never end because there are too many class combinations to balance them all and i would like to suggest some small changes on healing and tanking class with every patch.

    My feeling is that when I go on random runs in the Rofl I don't see any rogues at all in the group.

    Because in my opinion, most of them are not able to compete with the magic and chain classes on the same level of equipment.

    R / P who is able to do something, is to be weakened I do not know why, because in my opinion it is not a class that excels above others.





    Please bear with me, my English is poor

    Quote from xLutinex

    In general rogues cannot compare in whole RoFL with Chain dps or mdps classes. Maybe except rogue/Warrior because of his aoe.

    Quote from xLutinex

    This is just my opinion based on playstyle of rogues and chain classes in the last days and comparing it with mdps and other chain classes ( I know chain will be nerfed. But longer fights -> worse for rogues xd )

    In my most recent run as Ch/Wl, I have made the exact opposite observation. I could barely hold my ground against a much less geared R/P (t15 weapon, 3x t9 piece, rest t12). I'd say if you take the difference in gear into account, Ch/Wl does approximately 20% less overall damage. I can't say if R/P is too strong or Ch/Wl too weak, but if I just compare those two classes the nerf is absolutely justified.

    Quote from Serenadae
    Quote from xLutinex

    In general rogues cannot compare in whole RoFL with Chain dps or mdps classes. Maybe except rogue/Warrior because of his aoe.

    Quote from xLutinex

    This is just my opinion based on playstyle of rogues and chain classes in the last days and comparing it with mdps and other chain classes ( I know chain will be nerfed. But longer fights -> worse for rogues xd )

    In my most recent run as Ch/Wl, I have made the exact opposite observation. I could barely hold my ground against a much less geared R/P (t15 weapon, 3x t9 piece, rest t12). I'd say if you take the difference in gear into account, Ch/Wl does approximately 20% less overall damage. I can't say if R/P is too strong or Ch/Wl too weak, but if I just compare those two classes the nerf is absolutely justified.

    Did you also compare yourself to M / S, M / WD, M / CH, CH / M, W / R. In my humble opinion, comparing yourself to one class is not very appropriate.

    Quote from Byldi
    Quote from Serenadae

    In my most recent run as Ch/Wl, I have made the exact opposite observation. I could barely hold my ground against a much less geared R/P (t15 weapon, 3x t9 piece, rest t12). I'd say if you take the difference in gear into account, Ch/Wl does approximately 20% less overall damage. I can't say if R/P is too strong or Ch/Wl too weak, but if I just compare those two classes the nerf is absolutely justified.

    Did you also compare yourself to M / S, M / WD, M / CH, CH / M, W / R. In my humble opinion, comparing yourself to one class is not very appropriate.

    It is, because both you and Lutine have written that chain classes are stronger than Rogues in general. As I have stated, this is not true for classes like Ch/Wl.

    Quote from Serenadae
    Quote from Byldi

    Did you also compare yourself to M / S, M / WD, M / CH, CH / M, W / R. In my humble opinion, comparing yourself to one class is not very appropriate.

    It is, because both you and Lutine said chain classes are stronger than Rogues in general. As I have stated, this is not true for classes like Ch/Wl.

    Maybe for CH/WL which get a buff. But r/p is atm the strongest rogue in single damage and right behind r/w in aoe. With my t10 Chain gear I did more damage with Warrior/CH for example.

    Quote from xLutinex
    Quote from Serenadae

    It is, because both you and Lutine said chain classes are stronger than Rogues in general. As I have stated, this is not true for classes like Ch/Wl.

    Maybe for CH/WL which get a buff. But r/p is atm the strongest rogue in single damage and right behind r/w in aoe. With my t10 Chain gear I did more damage with Warrior/CH for example.

    I don't think that Ch/Wl gets a buff. The reduced cd of Indomitable Spirit just counteracts the loss of patk.

    Agreed, classes like Warrior/Champion excell at longer fights. But if the R/P nerf is to be reverted, Ch/Wl has to be buffed.

    I dislike generalizations, because they have lead to nerfs of all secondary classes, like it could be observed with Champion's Rune Pulse & Imprisonment Pulse ( excluding weapon passive, because several classes got that treatment).


    I get that you are upset with W/Ch dealing more damage than your Rogue, but please understand that I'm in the same situation when comparing R/P to my Ch/Wl.

    But you are comparing a weaker chain class with one of the top rogues ;)

    Warrior/CH was an example. Also Warrior/r and Warrior/WL are on top with lower gear.

    I also haven't the new ISS yet. And at least the CH/m is stronger than CH/WL.

    I understand that some chain classes are not on top, but please understand that you should one of the best chain classes comparing with one of the best rogues. Otherwise we can discuss that r/k is totally useless. Far far away in damage than CH/m while both tanking and even not so tanky in dps gear :P


    P.S.: I tested the chain class for myself with my own rogue. I am not a fan of comparing with other ppl because of reasons


    Greetings

    Heyo ,


    Little Suggestion / Wish for Scout/Rogue .


    Would it be possible to remove the GCD of Shot and/or Sapping Arrow (491496) ?

    This change would make the class rotation/gameplay more fluent .


    Greetings

    If you identify a UFO as a UFO , then it becomes an FO. Unless it has landed , then it is simply an -> O

    Like 1

    But isn't balancing about roughly equalizing the strength of all (dps) classes ? Ch/Wl was once top Champion too before getting nerfed. In fact, we have seen many top combinations of their respective class rise and fall. So you would be fine with the R/P nerf if there was a stronger Rogue ? I don't get the logic behind your argumentation.

    I'm not saying that they should keep the R/P nerf. But you should understand that taking it away arises the need of buffing many other, weaker, classes.

    I like the idea for sapping arrow.

    But wouldn't recommend such change for Shot. This would be to strong in single target compared to others, because you could always use 3 skills in 1,5 seconds

    If you would read my first statement to the nerf, i said "yes" which means something like "OK". My statement was about rogues in general that they cannot compete with other classes in longer fights than dwarven ale is up


    And btw rogue/k is a dps class, If champions are dps

    Quote

    My statement was about rogues in general that they cannot compete with other classes in longer fights than dwarven ale is up

    Indeed. And I disagree with this statement (generalization), which I should have made sufficiently clear in my previous posts.

    Quote

    And btw rogue/k is a dps class, If champions are dps

    Yep, R/K without Power of the Lion active is as good a dps as Ch/W with Disassembly Mode active.

    Quote from Serenadae
    Quote

    My statement was about rogues in general that they cannot compete with other classes in longer fights than dwarven ale is up

    Indeed. And I disagree with this statement (generalization), which I should have made sufficiently clear in my previous posts.

    Quote

    And btw rogue/k is a dps class, If champions are dps

    Yep, R/K without Power of the Lion active is as good a dps as Ch/W with Disassembly Mode active.

    If you compare CH/WL with r/p it is not fair comparing CH/w with r/k...

    We will see. You have your opinion and some other ppl have an other opinion. That's OK


    Greetings

    Hello there,

    And here we go again with "my truth is better than your truth". Every one of us have different experience and playstyle, so maybe don't make statements like "you are wrong becouse i'm not wrong"?


    What we know is that making equalisation of all dps class is damn hard thing to do. And only thing we should do i thing is to give OUR OWN opinions + maybe some screenshots of scruti or something with comment, like "this run was like that and those classes manage to deal this much dmg, i think it's ok/not ok"


    So about mages:

    feels like main problem(?) of top mages is that they spammable AOE/splash skills are bit too strong. Maybe Devs should look at them and reduce it's dmg slightly?
    oh and for m/s i think that after last patch his dmg output overall didn't change or maybe even got higher? What was taken by nerfing Cathalysis (-20% aoe dmg) was given back by fixing Flame Spirit speed. What about nerfing spirit's dmg a little?

    D/Wd

    I suggest to change Gift Pulse a bit:

    - healing magic pulses from the caster healing 10% of max hp every player in raid in radius of 150 from the caster every 2 seconds for 30 seconds,

    - every pulse consumes 1 Point of Nature so if caster doesn’t have any of it the spell won’t heal,

    - cooldown 2-3 min.

    Quote
    Changed Poisonous Widow Embrace damage value to 342.8% + 10 x 34.3% CPS dark damage from 5570 + 10 x 557, reduced energy recovery to 3 per hit from 2 per critical hit.

    How is that a decrease? Before it was 2 energy per crit, now it's 3 energy per hit in general (no matter if crit or not)? Or does it now only trigger if I don't crit?

    Quote from Zyrex
    Quote
    Changed Poisonous Widow Embrace damage value to 342.8% + 10 x 34.3% CPS dark damage from 5570 + 10 x 557, reduced energy recovery to 3 per hit from 2 per critical hit.

    How is that a decrease? Before it was 2 energy per crit, now it's 3 energy per hit in general (no matter if crit or not)? Or does it now only trigger if I don't crit?

    maybe wrong desrcription?