Class Balance [Patch 10.2.1.1000] & Bard

Quote from wiedzmin97

Thats why i said, probably u are right that for a extremely short fights and when r/w cant get to the mobs (well like any other rogues) its nothing wrong with that combination ,and you cant really see difference on pdps fully. Our party is always full of pdps (not all are full gold geared, but 3 main rogues - 2x r/w and r/d or if he swap to r/p, and they are full gold) and its really really noticeable.

I see .

But now i would like to know how you are comparing the classes , when i read that only(?) the main rogues have full gold gear / not everyone has gold gear in your runs and if it is a fair comparison of the classes.

Greetings

issue of most rogues are, if party is fast because of any other dps, most of rogues can't reach their max damage potential due to unfinished combos on mobs, even rogue/warrior needs 6 seconds to finish his poison damage to reach maximum damage. in the other and if party is fast enough even warden/warrior (worst warden in my opinion currently) is inflicting decent damage because you can use the short time with your buffs active.

so if rogue/warrior feels too strong to you, that means people in your guild are trying to destroy damage of each other rather than trying to make run faster, like how it is happening in my guild, like everyone buffing up at same place in mobs so 75% of your buff durations are being wasted etc. it is like going inferno b4 and bursting from 90% to 64% with all dpses instead of using just one in 2017.

Quote from Cruvor

Quote from wiedzmin97

Thats why i said, probably u are right that for a extremely short fights and when r/w cant get to the mobs (well like any other rogues) its nothing wrong with that combination ,and you cant really see difference on pdps fully. Our party is always full of pdps (not all are full gold geared, but 3 main rogues - 2x r/w and r/d or if he swap to r/p, and they are full gold) and its really really noticeable.

I see .

But now i would like to know how you are comparing the classes , when i read that only(?) the main rogues have full gold gear / not everyone has gold gear in your runs and if it is a fair comparison of the classes.

Greetings

I am not comparing to me (chain dps). Just comparing other rogue combos, on which our ppl in guild are running. Look for example what deszcz2 said in previous post. Only one thing which i said about all classes it was my personal feeling that all "poison classes" are really strong

Quote from espar91

issue of most rogues are, if party is fast because of any other dps, most of rogues can't reach their max damage potential due to unfinished combos on mobs, even rogue/warrior needs 6 seconds to finish his poison damage to reach maximum damage. in the other and if party is fast enough even warden/warrior (worst warden in my opinion currently) is inflicting decent damage because you can use the short time with your buffs active.

so if rogue/warrior feels too strong to you, that means people in your guild are trying to destroy damage of each other rather than trying to make run faster, like how it is happening in my guild, like everyone buffing up at same place in mobs so 75% of your buff durations are being wasted etc. it is like going inferno b4 and bursting from 90% to 64% with all dpses instead of using just one in 2017.

What we want to say is that we compare rouges betwen rouges and in this comparison r/w and r/d are much more superior than other combos (maybe r/wd also as Lutine mentioned) and that should be fixed.

Oh and to say so, we compare full run dmg output not one single burst on mobs/bosses.

Quote from deszcz2

Quote from espar91

issue of most rogues are, if party is fast because of any other dps, most of rogues can't reach their max damage potential due to unfinished combos on mobs, even rogue/warrior needs 6 seconds to finish his poison damage to reach maximum damage. in the other and if party is fast enough even warden/warrior (worst warden in my opinion currently) is inflicting decent damage because you can use the short time with your buffs active.

so if rogue/warrior feels too strong to you, that means people in your guild are trying to destroy damage of each other rather than trying to make run faster, like how it is happening in my guild, like everyone buffing up at same place in mobs so 75% of your buff durations are being wasted etc. it is like going inferno b4 and bursting from 90% to 64% with all dpses instead of using just one in 2017.

What we want to say is that we compare rouges betwen rouges and in this comparison r/w and r/d are much more superior than other combos (maybe r/wd also as Lutine mentioned) and that should be fixed.

Oh and to say so, we compare full run dmg output not one single burst on mobs/bosses.

First: I compare single boss and full run damage.

Second: rogue/warden was 1 example. Did you ever played rogue/priest or rogue/champ for example. Rogue/Champ is maybe worst aoe class in my example but it is still good

I play all classes except auto-attack classes. That is why I cannot say anything about /Magen and /warlock

Quote from xLutinex

Quote from deszcz2

What we want to say is that we compare rouges betwen rouges and in this comparison r/w and r/d are much more superior than other combos (maybe r/wd also as Lutine mentioned) and that should be fixed.

Oh and to say so, we compare full run dmg output not one single burst on mobs/bosses.

First: I compare single boss and full run damage.

Second: rogue/warden was 1 example. Did you ever played rogue/priest or rogue/champ for example. Rogue/Champ is maybe worst aoe class in my example but it is still good

I play all classes except auto-attack classes. That is why I cannot say anything about /Magen and /warlock

rogue/mage is actually far from being an auto attack class

Quote from wiedzmin97

Sorry, but i must say that u probably havn't played as r/w properly if u say so. And saying that there are classes that are better than (or as good as) the r/w... well, nothing more to say. You have told before that u are running most of time in party with ~ max 1-2x pdps, maybe thats why u cant see such a difference :).

Just no offence

I have to say, then your rouges probalby dind´t play the other combinations right. No offense

Quote from wiedzmin97

I am not comparing to me (chain dps). Just comparing other rogue combos, on which our ppl in guild are running.

Quote from deszcz2

What we want to say is that we compare rouges betwen rouges and in this comparison r/w and r/d are much more superior than other combos (maybe r/wd also as Lutine mentioned) and that should be fixed.

Oh and to say so, we compare full run dmg output not one single burst on mobs/bosses.

Just comparing different secondary combinations with one another does not help at all for the entire balancing. When do you only have dds with the same main class and different secondary classes? You should compare all classes with each other. Of course, the individual secondary classes must be balanced with each other, but also with other classes.

But to give you a proof we like to run with rogues tonight and will post the direct comparison here in the forum.

Quote from espar91

Quote from xLutinex

First: I compare single boss and full run damage.

Second: rogue/warden was 1 example. Did you ever played rogue/priest or rogue/champ for example. Rogue/Champ is maybe worst aoe class in my example but it is still good

I play all classes except auto-attack classes. That is why I cannot say anything about /Magen and /warlock

rogue/mage is actually far from being an auto attack class

I know

But I don't like such skills xd

Quote from Snickers0815

Quote from wiedzmin97

Sorry, but i must say that u probably havn't played as r/w properly if u say so. And saying that there are classes that are better than (or as good as) the r/w... well, nothing more to say. You have told before that u are running most of time in party with ~ max 1-2x pdps, maybe thats why u cant see such a difference :).

Just no offence

I have to say, then your rouges probalby dind´t play the other combinations right. No offense

Quote from wiedzmin97

I am not comparing to me (chain dps). Just comparing other rogue combos, on which our ppl in guild are running.

Quote from deszcz2

What we want to say is that we compare rouges betwen rouges and in this comparison r/w and r/d are much more superior than other combos (maybe r/wd also as Lutine mentioned) and that should be fixed.

Oh and to say so, we compare full run dmg output not one single burst on mobs/bosses.

And that´s just wrong. Just comparing different secondary combinations with one another does not help at all for the entire balancing. When do you only have dds with the same main class and different secondary classes? You should compare all classes with each other. Of course, the individual secondary classes must be balanced with each other, but also with other classes.

But to give you a proof we like to run with rogues tonight and will post the direct comparison here in the forum.

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In my opinion balance should be first done in one class and it's different combos(so every combo of this call will be viable), and then level all classes to same/similar dmg(so everything will be playable). (but this is how i would do balance)

Ok so i wait to see what you guys will get with this run i hope we all get some new experience and more usefull informations.

Quote from deszcz2

In my opinion balance should be first done in one class and it's different combos(so every combo of this call will be viable), and then level all classes to same/similar dmg(so everything will be playable). (but this is how i would do balance)

That is probably a question of how one would like to carry out the balancing. In my opinion it is difficult to balance all classes in their combinations first and then to other classes because there is no real component that can be adjusted to make all secondary classes better or worse with one change. So I prefer to set a benchmark and then adjust all classes to the value. You would then have to decide whether you want to divide the classes into categories (aoe, support, single target damage, burst damage...) and how much you weight which category. (By that I mean how much damage can you "take away" from a class if it has good support skills.)

Well but that is probably an independent topic and is decided by the devs.

Quote from Snickers0815

Quote from deszcz2

In my opinion balance should be first done in one class and it's different combos(so every combo of this call will be viable), and then level all classes to same/similar dmg(so everything will be playable). (but this is how i would do balance)

That is probably a question of how one would like to carry out the balancing. In my opinion it is difficult to balance all classes in their combinations first and then to other classes because there is no real component that can be adjusted to make all secondary classes better or worse with one change. So I prefer to set a benchmark and then adjust all classes to the value. You would then have to decide whether you want to divide the classes into categories (aoe, support, single target damage, burst damage...) and how much you weight which category. (By that I mean how much damage can you "take away" from a class if it has good support skills.)

Well but that is probably an independent topic and is decided by the devs.

I think we are circling around for some days/weeks. Only a few classes get balanced atm, most is about warden and champ, sometimes a rogue appears in patchnotes (as I feel it). Imho balancing is not possible in the current content, since we have a too massive gap in the playerbase in terms of gear.

On one hand we got the (more or less) golden player raids which just destroy all inis and bosses in a leap. On the other hand we got guilds that still struggle on Inferno, Tikal, maybe Gorge. BUT we need a balancing that matches them all, or at least most of them.

The way how it's done currently is not the way I think it's effective nor efficient. Most players complaining about their very own favorite classes and are not objective, that's a problem. Also all our raids are completely different, in our guild runs the wardens are absolute overpowered, on others the mages, and so on. It all depends on so many factors, such as available support, gear, rota engine (custom lua, kitty, diyce, slayer, whatever). So that all makes no sense at all to me.

What we need is a unite environment to test stuff. On other games I saw dummy parses where you burst on a dummy to reach a specific amount of damage and check the time after that. Same could be done for AoE with multiple dummys. But ROFL is imho the worst example to compare classes/raids or to balance classes at all.

Quote from Zyrex

Quote from Snickers0815

That is probably a question of how one would like to carry out the balancing. In my opinion it is difficult to balance all classes in their combinations first and then to other classes because there is no real component that can be adjusted to make all secondary classes better or worse with one change. So I prefer to set a benchmark and then adjust all classes to the value. You would then have to decide whether you want to divide the classes into categories (aoe, support, single target damage, burst damage...) and how much you weight which category. (By that I mean how much damage can you "take away" from a class if it has good support skills.)

Well but that is probably an independent topic and is decided by the devs.

I think we are circling around for some days/weeks. Only a few classes get balanced atm, most is about warden and champ, sometimes a rogue appears in patchnotes (as I feel it). Imho balancing is not possible in the current content, since we have a too massive gap in the playerbase in terms of gear.

On one hand we got the (more or less) golden player raids which just destroy all inis and bosses in a leap. On the other hand we got guilds that still struggle on Inferno, Tikal, maybe Gorge. BUT we need a balancing that matches them all, or at least most of them.

The way how it's done currently is not the way I think it's effective nor efficient. Most players complaining about their very own favorite classes and are not objective, that's a problem. Also all our raids are completely different, in our guild runs the wardens are absolute overpowered, on others the mages, and so on. It all depends on so many factors, such as available support, gear, rota engine (custom lua, kitty, diyce, slayer, whatever). So that all makes no sense at all to me.

What we need is a unite environment to test stuff. On other games I saw dummy parses where you burst on a dummy to reach a specific amount of damage and check the time after that. Same could be done for AoE with multiple dummys. But ROFL is imho the worst example to compare classes/raids or to balance classes at all.

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Even in RoFL it could be realized. If nobody runs normal mode, change it to 12 ppl instance and increase hp of all by 5-8 times. Than you have burst + sustain at same boss because of many hp and you also see good or less good aoe classes if mobs have 250kk hp 😁

Quote from Zyrex

On the other hand we got guilds that still struggle on Inferno, Tikal, maybe Gorge.

don't take it personally, if people are struggling with running tikal/inferno/gorge with current overboosted classes, then they should not call themselves a properly playing dps. even in 2018 these instances were possible to run with 1-2 dps with classes alot weaker than current class combinations.

Hello everyone

I will write about the mage / rogue. I play a lot with this magician, this is my favorite magician and I would like to see a small change added for a more comfortable game.

"Gift of the Baron" is a good skill, but in my opinion it requires correction: to make sure that damage is done as additional damage from blows, and not hit on its own, since on Astaroth, when boars appear, this skill hits them faster than the tank and all the boars are flying at the mage / r, given that I have two 12 runes to reduce aggro. Or somehow work out the aggro of this magician and make this skill without rollback, so that you can turn it off and then turn it on. Also, so that the 8% damage buff is given only to the mage / r himself, and not to the entire raid. After all, the scout has a very similar skill that eats up his life and increases the damage to him personally, and not to the whole group. Also from the healing of this skill 0 benefit for the raid.

"Runic Formation" - Please remove -50% movement speed. Perhaps for a mage who hits from afar, this is not a problem, but for a mage / r whose "Purgatory Darkness" deals melee damage, it is disastrously inconvenient, a huge amount of damage is lost on mobs.

Good game everyone.

Quote from espar91

so if rogue/warrior feels too strong to you, that means people in your guild are trying to destroy damage of each other rather than trying to make run faster, like how it is happening in my guild, like everyone buffing up at same place in mobs so 75% of your buff durations are being wasted etc. it is like going inferno b4 and bursting from 90% to 64% with all dpses instead of using just one in 2017.

This is so true, but sadly nowadays most dps mostly seem to care about getting the longest bar displayed in the scrutinizer and not actually focusing about what would speed up the run the most. I guess this is a point of view you only get by not really playing dps at all, watching them from the "outside".

A dialogue like: "I burn this pull" - "Ok, do it! Then I burn the next one." is hardly heard nowadays, instead what I hear is: "...why do I even use buffs...." after 3 dps burned one group of trashmobs and one of them doing >80% of the dmg because he/she was the fastest.

Quote from Zyrex

What we need is a unite environment to test stuff. On other games I saw dummy parses where you burst on a dummy to reach a specific amount of damage and check the time after that. Same could be done for AoE with multiple dummys. But ROFL is imho the worst example to compare classes/raids or to balance classes at all.

Actually we too have those dummies since a few patches, however they seem to not work correctly, receiving different amounts of dmg that not fit their debuffs....has btw anyone already reported these bugs??

Maybe devs not being aware of that and getting wrong results from them is a reason for certain changes that the playerbase disagrees with.

Cheers!

Quote from espar91

Quote from Zyrex

On the other hand we got guilds that still struggle on Inferno, Tikal, maybe Gorge.

don't take it personally, if people are struggling with running tikal/inferno/gorge with current overboosted classes, then they should not call themselves a properly playing dps. even in 2018 these instances were possible to run with 1-2 dps with classes alot weaker than current class combinations.

Not taken as such, as it doesn't relate to me or my guild Totally agree to this, but still you need to accept even those player who might not understand how mechanics and stuff works, who have higher pings than skyscrapers and these who play on their own built pc system for like 30 years now. I mean, we all play the same game and want to have fun altogether, so noone should get disadvantages of behavior of others. I don't blaim anyone not to play endgame or not to use a combat engine or whatever.

Quote from melodic

Actually we too have those dummies since a few patches, however they seem to not work correctly, receiving different amounts of dmg that not fit their debuffs....

Yeah, maybe we need some more, maybe also some "trash"-simulation with separated fields of 5, 10, 15, 20 dummys with trashmob values

Quote from Zyrex

Totally agree to this, but still you need to accept even those player who might not understand how mechanics and stuff works, who have higher pings than skyscrapers and these who play on their own built pc system for like 30 years now.

wait, what? why would i accept that people apparently have no idea about "how mechanics and stuff works" should get a boost just because some other people know how to play? i mean, instead of learning how to play -

if they have ping or old computer, thats their own issue, not related with class balance. it is like adding auto aim to players who have low fps in an first person shooter game.

Warden/Warrior

• Suggested changes will help and I think making feral as a mix of pdam and pa is a good idea (although i would recommend to revert back to 50% pdam since combo has berserk to reach enough pa during burst though outside of it is a different matter...) since having 50% pa and berserk hardly needed.

• I think wd/w burst should be decent, but the sustain + aoe would still be weak, however, I suggest two things:

• 1) make charge chop and power of the wood spirit to be earth too

• 2) some kind of permanent buff is missing for earth damage - i suggested before to maybe have extra earth damage triggered if frantic briar hits, just like explosion wave for ch/wd or simple plain earth damage increase. To offset that, if combo starts of overperform, cut down burst numbers for feral.

My few cents

Quote from espar91

Quote from Zyrex

Totally agree to this, but still you need to accept even those player who might not understand how mechanics and stuff works, who have higher pings than skyscrapers and these who play on their own built pc system for like 30 years now.

wait, what? why would i accept that people apparently have no idea about "how mechanics and stuff works" should get a boost just because some other people know how to play? i mean, instead of learning how to play -

if they have ping or old computer, thats their own issue, not related with class balance. it is like adding auto aim to players who have low fps in an first person shooter game.

Don't get me wrong, I don't talk about those leechers that don't do anything in ROFL and let others die for their core. I'm talking about players who might not have that much knowledge of the game yet or need some help but are willed to evolve and to do progress. I saw many ppl that were very lost in the CoA-Universe, but after helping them with rota or such, they were able to come to terms with it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Quote from Zyrex

I'm talking about players who might not have that much knowledge of the game yet or need some help but are willed to evolve and to do progress.

This is all fine but we are talking about end game Ideally, some skill level must be required + gear, but tbh for rofl gear is not that important in my opinion, you dont need to burst anything except 4th, but even then 4th you have a lot of time before raid cant outheal the dots. 5th does have some dps check but again if you have solid raid should not be an issue

Quote from Rakot_Hades

This is all fine but we are talking about end game

That's the point. Are we only talking about endgame and one meta for everything, based on only our endgame experience?

Quote from Zyrex

Quote from Rakot_Hades

This is all fine but we are talking about end game

That's the point. Are we only talking about endgame and one meta for everything, based on only our endgame experience?

New revised combo are so op relative to prev ones + red gear is really strong and red gear (at least chain idk about others) is super cheap now days, like few hundred dias per piece; so with that gear easily accessible i dont see why any lower level ini an issue. Problem with for example gorge is not gear - you dont need op gear there either, but you must have coordination to run few events + know strat; funny enough in terms of difficulty even now gorge is many times harder than rofl haha Please note this is true even though if i am not mistaken additional damage reduction is already implemented in rofl, so we all effectively nerfed there Thats why when you run lower lev ini you do so much more

But in terms of balancing, I still think rofl must be used as a point of reference since this is a current end game.

Please stop making rogue calsses weaker and weaker. This is definitely not the strongest dd class, neither in single target, nor in aoe dmg. There are serveral class combs that are way more strong. Let us just look at the mage classes. They are dealing so much more dmg with same lvl of gear and they dnt even have to go in close combat.

Quote from Ramabutter

Please stop making rogue calsses weaker and weaker. This is definitely not the strongest dd class, neither in single target, nor in aoe dmg. There are serveral class combs that are way more strong. Let us just look at the mage classes. They are dealing so much more dmg with same lvl of gear and they dnt even have to go in close combat.

Can you please explain why you think so?

I don't say that mages aren't dealing high dmg, but if you telling such strong conclusion about mages and roguesi believe that you have something to prove your point of view.

I totally agree with you when you just compare rogue classes. But if you look at all classes there are combinations, that are way more strong. And I think we should look at this gaps between different classes aswell, since there arent that many patches, that focus on just one class. And the comparison between mage and rogue was just an example.

Quote from deszcz2

Quote from espar91

issue of most rogues are, if party is fast because of any other dps, most of rogues can't reach their max damage potential due to unfinished combos on mobs, even rogue/warrior needs 6 seconds to finish his poison damage to reach maximum damage. in the other and if party is fast enough even warden/warrior (worst warden in my opinion currently) is inflicting decent damage because you can use the short time with your buffs active.

so if rogue/warrior feels too strong to you, that means people in your guild are trying to destroy damage of each other rather than trying to make run faster, like how it is happening in my guild, like everyone buffing up at same place in mobs so 75% of your buff durations are being wasted etc. it is like going inferno b4 and bursting from 90% to 64% with all dpses instead of using just one in 2017.

What we want to say is that we compare rouges betwen rouges and in this comparison r/w and r/d are much more superior than other combos (maybe r/wd also as Lutine mentioned) and that should be fixed.

Oh and to say so, we compare full run dmg output not one single burst on mobs/bosses.